Bagging, Just the way it is???

[Afuente]

I am one that strives to play the best I can and to my potential. I played one 9 ball session and was disgusted with the amount of bagging going on I refuse to play again. I am however on an 8 ball team and it is evident that bagging still exists but it is not as obvious at times. I have settled with the thought, the reality is that this is just the way it is and I would much rather loose at COC’s or Citywide knowing that my team played there best and to their potential than to advance to Las Vegas by bagging and win by cheating. How can you have any satisifacion knowing you had to cheat to win? Where is the self woth in that?

Having said that, it still amazes me that well respected players and their teams are bagging and they are adamant to their players that they cannot win or play to their potential during the standard session. If you play someone two levels above you, but you can only win 2 maybe 3 times in the session or do not win until COC’s, that way when you win at COC's you will not be raised because you lost so much during the regular session.

I had a general conversation with a gentleman that was playing on a practice table the other night during leagues. I introduced myself as did he and he asked me if I played on leagues. I said "yes I play out of here." He asked what my level was and I said "I was a 5, and you I asked"? “I am a 3” he said, “wow” I replied, “I’ve been watching you play a few games and you don’t play like a 3”, “Well I’m a 3 on paper" he replied as he nearly ran the table on the first game we played. “I was shooting here and was asked to join a team” he mentioned "I have not played APA before". “I was told I could not win for a while though. They let me win against a 6 a week or two ago” he said. “I was told I could not really win until COC’s, they think we have a pretty stacked team to get to Vegas” he mentioned. “I think I could shoot as a 5” he expressed, as he won the next 5 games. Giving me one shot at the table each game. “Do you think I could shoot as a 5” he asked? I said “Yeah, I think so”

His consistency of English, stroke, bank shots, kick shots, position play and defense was clearly the definition of a SL5. SL3 I don’t think so.

I won 2 games of the 15 we played and he is a 3 on paper.

I have read other posts about bagging, and the reality is that, this is just the way it is. It apparently cannot be monitored each night aside from having more DR’s watch and report on players. I do think if you go to Vegas you should not be able to go below the highest SL you played as.

Is there an effective way to monitor this? Is one option to have a responsibility of a team captain to assess the other teams players? Would the fact that knowing you are being assessed force you or your team to play to their potential?

I think a rating sheet for each team each night should be part of score keeping. As rating sheets of players are submitted from different teams you can make a decision based on the rating from different teams on different nights.

Please feel free to comment.

[Uncle Rico]

Is there an effective way to monitor this? Is one option to have a responsibility of a team captain to assess the other teams players? Would the fact that knowing you are being assessed force you or your team to play to their potential?

I think a rating sheet for each team each night should be part of score keeping. As rating sheets of players are submitted from different teams you can make a decision based on the rating from different teams on different nights.

Please feel free to comment.


Where. oh where do I start?

You really want the captains of teams that you are competing against to rate your own players. This is ridiculous.

I am sure that opposing teams will rate the players very fair.

And now for a general rant about the multitude of sandbagging topics:

As it stands now, if a lower players beats a higher SL, the first thing that happens is the crybaby types start screaming sandbagging. The only way to make you happy is if your players never lose to an equal or lower ranked opponent. Insanity.

Furthermore, I feel a lot of people over rate their own ability as a player. Just because you happen to be a 5, and I may be a 4 doesn't necessarily mean that you are the better player. you may have beaten up on 3's your whole time in the league while my team plays me against some of the better players in the league. Do you consider that sandbagging?

Well it is not. I suppose that if I am 2-6 for the session playing only 6's that would be some form of cheating.

When complaining about bagging and not being able to win at COC, playoffs, citywide....and so on...Maybe you should look long and hard at the make up of your own team. Sandbagging teams can be beat and get beat the majority of the time with smart pool playing and good matchups.

Some teams are just not put together to win, and just because you think you should and don't, doesnt make everyone else a bagger.

[Stumpy]

I don't have an opinion either way about bagging or not but I do have something to say about how some people reply on these threads.

AT NO time did Afuente attack or degrade or belittle anyone else. They clearly stated their position, their experience, and their opinion about a subject that was important to them. IT amazes me how quickly people start getting defensive and rude whenever they feel threatened.

DID Afluente say "I feel Uncle Rico is a sandbagger and I'd like to know how to get him kicked out of this league?" No, all he said is that there is a problem and here is how I think it should be solved, does anyone else have an idea how? I find it incredibly rude for anyone to claim another person's idea is "ridiculous" and then not have the gall to give another idea instead. It doesn't take much to rip someone else down, but god forbid you'd have to give some kind of original idea yourself to support your comments.

Anyway, if you want to catch the sandbaggers what you need to do is put a handicap review board togerther. This board needs to consist of respected, honest players with very equal representation and then given unlimited power. Their word needs to be final. We have one in our league (non-APA) that consists of 8 players with the league operator as the overseer and final vote. IF they feel someone is shooting under handicap, they put a mark by them and watch them for a session. If after the session it happens to just be a case of a mini losing streak, then no harm done. IF on the other hand they are still losing when they shouldn't be, then they get raised, no questions asked and no arguements listened to. Furthermore, their handicap gets locked so that it can no longer go down but it can still go up.

This works because everyone knows and respects the players on the board, and the players know almost everyone that shoots in the league. Sometimes it's harsh but when we're talking about sandbagging, the only way to deal with it is to be harsh. At the begining of the session we had about 7-10 people sandbagging. We raised and locked 6 people, and now we only have 2-3 that are still being watched, and every match is a lot fairer because of this.

[rjp_72]

Thats a great idea Stumpy. I have said they should do something like that for years. Especially when the team goes to upper level play and someone moves up. They should stay raised. The only hard part might be to find the honest people to be on the board. At the rate this league is going and from reading all the friendly posts it sounds like "trust" is far and few.

[Boogz]

Thats a great idea Stumpy. I have said they should do something like that for years. Especially when the team goes to upper level play and someone moves up. They should stay raised. The only hard part might be to find the honest people to be on the board. At the rate this league is going and from reading all the friendly posts it sounds like "trust" is far and few.

Yea, but trustworthy people are out there. Just hard to find, more then likely they are the silent ones that sit in the corner. But they are willing to help if asked.

Sandbagging issue: To much complaining about winning and losing. To many complaints come from people losing and they feel they lost to someone who is inferior to them. That is what the equilizer system is for. If you just want to play heads up against everyone so you don't lose to someone with less talent, then you are in the wrong league.

How to help clean sandbagging, but not take the fun out of the league:

One thing that can be done is to add another handicap level, and that should be the level 8. When teams have that superstar 7 that can win 15 or 16 times a session, that is a 1/4 to 1/3 of the wins needed to finish in first coming from one person. Now that superstar 7 can help maintain the handicaps of everyone else on the team.

My other fix would be, have 6's or 7's watching that qustionable player. I'm sorry but with a couple of 'ball in hands' any 3 and up should be able to win in 1 or 2 innings. We need to pay attention more to consistancy and knowledge. ex. At CoC I watched a Main Inn 2 pull off a 6 inch draw into the corner and left herself a straight in 8 into the opposite corner pocket. A 2 should not be able to do that, I don't care if she is playing with Sarge. A 2 that is always getting a ridiclous spot should not be able to have a controlable draw shot.

Another example, I've seen countless 3's using inside english and going 2 or 3 rails for leaves.

So higher ranked players would be able to spot this in a heartbeat and tell Mary "somethings up".

[Tamara]

What I can't get over is how some teams are just so open and lax about their bagging. They even joke about it! We shot a team this past week and they were talking to us about bagging like it was nothing. I played first against another 3 and I truly feel we were well matched. Anyway, he took the first game. In the second game I was left with 2 pretty hard shots that both happen to be backwards cuts. I will be the first to admit that I SUCK at banking, but I've practiced cutting so frequently that I can easily make these shots. Well, I won the second game and the other team joked how their player "got hussled" and that I "bagged" the first game. Well, let me just say that even if I was that lame to actually sandbag, I'm not good enough to just give away games. And secondly, I wanna GET BETTER at this game and my progress SHOULD reflect my SL. My opinion is this...if you feel you gotta cheat to win, then go ahead but with that you take a huge crap on the essence of the game itself. I would feel like the biggest LOSER if I had a room full of trophies that I knew I got only by bagging. I just hope that there remains those of us who truly love the game and enjoy getting better at it. For us, going up a SL feels good because it shows we are improving. You should not be scared that you have to win more games, that's dumb! If I went up to a 4 right now, I would play even harder! Not worse to go back down and make it "easier". What is THAT about???

[Hot Carl]

I have to agree with Uncle Rico here. The complaints about bagging get completely out of hand sometimes. I can see getting pissed when someone is openly talking about how they do it. But in the time that I've been in this league, the majority of teams just assume that you are bagging before the night starts and then get worse as the night goes on. I'm a 4. If I beat another 4 or a 5 I get called a sandbagger. If I lose to a 3 I get called a sandbagger. When I was playing as a 3 I got ball in hand on an open table and made 3 shots. While getting down on my fourth shot the other team started complaining that I shouldn't have been able to do that. WHAT?!?! Its not an isolated incident either.

A lot of people on here claim that pool isn't fun anymore and say its because of sandbaggers. Maybe you don't enjoy the game anymore because you spend every night concerned about all the baggers in the league. Just play and have fun, it isn't that hard.

Where I strongly agree with Uncle Rico is about the tendency of some people to overrate their own play and the play of their team. In 8 ball their are only a total of 6 possible handicaps. Therefore not all 5's are equal nor are all 4's equal and so on. If your 5 gets smoked by another 5 it doesn't mean that the other 5 has been sanbagging and should be a 6. It most likely means that person was a strong 5 and your player was a weak 5. So when I say that people have a tendency to overrate themselves I don't mean in a grand sense such as you think you're really good when you are terrible. It means that there is a disparity of ability within each handicap level. I hope people take that into consideration before making false accusations of cheating and making complaints to try to get every opponent moved up a level.

[chuxter61]

WELL SPOKEN Hot Carl! Finally, somone who has "sense and sensibility" on this topic. On a personal note: I believe Mary should raise everyone to the highest level they have achieved, and make our S/L only one way......up and never down. Just my opinion though.

[snap the 8]

Where. oh where do I start?

You really want the captains of teams that you are competing against to rate your own players. This is ridiculous.

I am sure that opposing teams will rate the players very fair.

And now for a general rant about the multitude of sandbagging topics:

As it stands now, if a lower players beats a higher SL, the first thing that happens is the crybaby types start screaming sandbagging. The only way to make you happy is if your players never lose to an equal or lower ranked opponent. Insanity.

Furthermore, I feel a lot of people over rate their own ability as a player. Just because you happen to be a 5, and I may be a 4 doesn't necessarily mean that you are the better player. you may have beaten up on 3's your whole time in the league while my team plays me against some of the better players in the league. Do you consider that sandbagging?

Well it is not. I suppose that if I am 2-6 for the session playing only 6's that would be some form of cheating.

When complaining about bagging and not being able to win at COC, playoffs, citywide....and so on...Maybe you should look long and hard at the make up of your own team. Sandbagging teams can be beat and get beat the majority of the time with smart pool playing and good matchups.

Some teams are just not put together to win, and just because you think you should and don't, doesnt make everyone else a bagger.



i just have one question....if you are a 4 and a good one at that then why would your team want to play you against (8) 6's in one session? and to further go to understand the way you think your 2-6 record in those matches
isnt very successful.

[Boogz]

WELL SPOKEN Hot Carl! Finally, somone who has "sense and sensibility" on this topic. On a personal note: I believe Mary should raise everyone to the highest level they have achieved, and make our S/L only one way......up and never down. Just my opinion though.

Don't forget that this is Mary's buisness. When the 2's and 3's start to dwindle, with a 23 handicap rule. Teams will start to disband and some paying customers, will be holding on to their money.

[chuxter61]

Good point Boogz. But I believe this may be benefical for Mary. It would require team captains to recruit new players into the league, in order for them to make the 23 rule. Thus, increasing Mary's membership numbers, and prevent team stacking.

[Hot Carl]

A blanket rule not allowing handicaps to go down may sound great but it brings up some problems. One example would be somebody practices 4 nights a week, works their way up to a 6, and plays at that level for a session or two. Then say, for one reason or another, that person doesn't play for a year. Maybe work or family gets in the way. Then they come back and aren't nearly as consistent as they were when at the top of the game. They now legitamitely shoot as a 5. What then? Is it just tough luck? Sorry you had something else going on but you're a 6 no matter what?

[Boogz]

Good point Boogz. But I believe this may be benefical for Mary. It would require team captains to recruit new players into the league, in order for them to make the 23 rule. Thus, increasing Mary's membership numbers, and prevent team stacking.

True, but it would be an inward/outward flow. You'd have people quitting because they can't play with the people they want to or feel that they are undeserving of their handicap. Captains would be asking some teammates to leave because he/she needs new blood for lower handicaps, just to much drama in that scenario.

[Boogz]

A blanket rule not allowing handicaps to go down may sound great but it brings up some problems. One example would be somebody practices 4 nights a week, works their way up to a 6, and plays at that level for a session or two. Then say, for one reason or another, that person doesn't play for a year. Maybe work or family gets in the way. Then they come back and aren't nearly as consistent as they were when at the top of the game. They now legitamitely shoot as a 5. What then? Is it just tough luck? Sorry you had something else going on but you're a 6 no matter what?

Or just age and the fluxuation of talent in this area. a.k.a. "everything that goes up, must come down". A superstar 7 15 years ago, might just be a good 6 now.

[Stumpy]

A blanket rule not allowing handicaps to go down may sound great but it brings up some problems. One example would be somebody practices 4 nights a week, works their way up to a 6, and plays at that level for a session or two. Then say, for one reason or another, that person doesn't play for a year. Maybe work or family gets in the way. Then they come back and aren't nearly as consistent as they were when at the top of the game. They now legitamitely shoot as a 5. What then? Is it just tough luck? Sorry you had something else going on but you're a 6 no matter what?

In this case our board would review the situation, watch it for a session or half a session, and then bring it to a vote. We have actually unlocked 4-5 players in the last year, lowering them one handi-cap and then letting them play to much success. Like I said, the board's word is final and they're very respected and they know most of the players so it works out very. very well.

[jiffy247]

WELL SPOKEN Hot Carl! Finally, somone who has "sense and sensibility" on this topic. On a personal note: I believe Mary should raise everyone to the highest level they have achieved, and make our S/L only one way......up and never down. Just my opinion though.

ok... lets take you for example, lets say your a 4, and you get better as the year goes by. so you move up to a 5 in 6 months, then your work calls you in for more time or you just can't get out to practice playing anymore, and you basically drop in skill and you realize it, but you handicap doesn't move cause the ruling says" you can't get worse". does that mean you should be punished for the fact you played well in those 6 months and no other time? come'on, think about it. then you would be complaining about the fact you aren't a 5. the system works people!! ( as long as you play the games)..

[jiffy247]

In this case our board would review the situation, watch it for a session or half a session, and then bring it to a vote. We have actually unlocked 4-5 players in the last year, lowering them one handi-cap and then letting them play to much success. Like I said, the board's word is final and they're very respected and they know most of the players so it works out very. very well.

would you want the fate of your playing ability to come down to people that don't know you and dont have you records? i don't think so!! i want my fate to come down to the person that has history on my past matches and someone that is actually the one with the POWER to do something about it...

its just a pipe dream.......

[angry pirate]

would you want the fate of your playing ability to come down to people that don't know you and dont have you records? i don't think so!! i want my fate to come down to the person that has history on my past matches and someone that is actually the one with the POWER to do something about it...

its just a pipe dream.......

jiffy likes the pipe!!!!

[Hot Carl]

Where has Tiguy been? He's more fun to make fun of than Jiffy. Jiffy is just to easy.

[Uncle Rico]

i just have one question....if you are a 4 and a good one at that then why would your team want to play you against (8) 6's in one session? and to further go to understand the way you think your 2-6 record in those matches
isnt very successful.

I am not a 4 and it was purely a hypothetical situation. Some teams play stupid like that, we do not. Just a point to ponder since a lot of people are quick to point a finger at someone and accuse them of cheating.

When I used to be a 4. I would win and people would still accuse me of sandbagging. Actually, win or lose, certain people accuse entire teams of bagging just because they cant win.

In all honesty, I loved when people thought I was a bagger because then I was in their head and they couldn't win anyway. Good Times.

[dltrunn]

Even if nobody in our league was bagging there would still be people that think it is going on. It is a no win situation, unless people just get over it and play their own game. I think some people resort to that mind set because they just can't believe they got beat. The other person must be a cheater. I honestly wouldn't know if someone I was playing was bagging because I just don't pay that much attention to their game.

I am a 5 but depending on what night you see me play you could think I am a bagger or a 3, it just depends on how long I am there before I have to play.

[Stumpy]

would you want the fate of your playing ability to come down to people that don't know you and dont have you records? i don't think so!! i want my fate to come down to the person that has history on my past matches and someone that is actually the one with the POWER to do something about it...

its just a pipe dream.......

Okay, although I didn't go into full detail about our board, you apparently didn't read this entire thread or else you would already know that they DO HAVE THE POWER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, AND THEY HAVE USED THIS POWER MULTIPLE TIMES ALREADY. As a matter of fact, they are the only one's who have the power (our league operator has forfeited this power to the board in order to make it successful). AS for the stats and records, our board is provided with an up to the exact date record of every stat that the player has achieved in our league. Furthermore, because of the diversity of our board (which ranges from very high handi-cap players to very low handi-cap players) they do know almost every player, and then we make an educated decision.

This is not a pipe dream, we've been using it for the last 6 months and it's worked great. As I stated in my first post, it's really irritating to see someone try and knock someone else's idea without coming up with one themselves.

[angry pirate]

Where has Tiguy been? He's more fun to make fun of than Jiffy. Jiffy is just to easy.

mabye tiguy is locked up in jiffys basement with dave. Having pipe dreams

[jiffy247]

Okay, although I didn't go into full detail about our board, you apparently didn't read this entire thread or else you would already know that they DO HAVE THE POWER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, AND THEY HAVE USED THIS POWER MULTIPLE TIMES ALREADY. As a matter of fact, they are the only one's who have the power (our league operator has forfeited this power to the board in order to make it successful). AS for the stats and records, our board is provided with an up to the exact date record of every stat that the player has achieved in our league. Furthermore, because of the diversity of our board (which ranges from very high handi-cap players to very low handi-cap players) they do know almost every player, and then we make an educated decision.

This is not a pipe dream, we've been using it for the last 6 months and it's worked great. As I stated in my first post, it's really irritating to see someone try and knock someone else's idea without coming up with one themselves.



wow..... i would like to know who your league operator is because to give up descriptive details of one of their players is completely mind blowing!!! i don't believe one word that you have wrote in your post. as a person that knows quite a few league operators( and they know me, played with or against), they will not give out complete documents about one single player.. and to give this kind of power to a couple of VOLUNTEERS! is a bit of a stretch...

this IS a pipe dream, because the people that THINK they have this much power might as well start getting paid from their league because your league operator is not doing their job..



and yes tomtiguy is a little busy right now....

[jiffy247]

wow..... i would like to know who your league operator is because to give up descriptive details of one of their players is completely mind blowing!!! i don't believe one word that you have wrote in your post. as a person that knows quite a few league operators( and they know me, played with or against), they will not give out complete documents about one single player.. and to give this kind of power to a couple of VOLUNTEERS! is a bit of a stretch...

this IS a pipe dream, because the people that THINK they have this much power might as well start getting paid from their league because your league operator is not doing their job..



and yes tomtiguy is a little busy right now....




you know what, i apologize. i didnt fully read the first post that you put up on the first page, but the one thig that caught me was the quote" NON-APA" . this system would never work in an american poolplaying SANCTIONED league. i appreciate your opinion but it can't work here.


not to be harsh, but it IS a pipe dream........

[Stumpy]

you know what, i apologize. i didnt fully read the first post that you put up on the first page, but the one thig that caught me was the quote" NON-APA" . this system would never work in an american poolplaying SANCTIONED league. i appreciate your opinion but it can't work here.


not to be harsh, but it IS a pipe dream........

I accept your appology and just to be blunt, the league is ACS in Grundy County and the league operator is me, Dan Hensley AKA Stumpy. IF you still don't believe it go to our website www.grundy8ball.com and take a read. I said that I gave all the stats on their wins/losses, not their personal information. I don't believe in pipe dreams, anything that's worth dreaming about is achievable, you just have to truly want it and then put in the work that's required.

[rexkwondo]

Seems to me that there should be the rule that once you reach a certain handicap you should never be allowed to drop 2 levels. I don't care how long someone has been out of leagues, they don't forget how to hold a cue, draw, force follow, etc. Teams aren't always going to give a fair evaluation of their opponents performance no matter what the score for the night is. However, if every team captain deems a player a certain handicap then it should be so. That being said, captains should not be lower than a 5. After all, you have to know somewhat how to play in order to evaluate others, right? I also agree with the other post that teams that have 2 players move up 2 SL's from COC on should have to pay back the money for vegas. It isn't quite worth the trip if you have to pay for it. Right?

[dalesrjr8]

All i have to say is that its not right that a team that won first place last session and won at COC and is going to Citywide is almost dead last in there divison and that only one player on that team is over 50 percent winning percentage this session.

[zigcue]

Seems to me that there should be the rule that once you reach a certain handicap you should never be allowed to drop 2 levels. I don't care how long someone has been out of leagues, they don't forget how to hold a cue, draw, force follow, etc. Teams aren't always going to give a fair evaluation of their opponents performance no matter what the score for the night is. However, if every team captain deems a player a certain handicap then it should be so. That being said, captains should not be lower than a 5. After all, you have to know somewhat how to play in order to evaluate others, right? I also agree with the other post that teams that have 2 players move up 2 SL's from COC on should have to pay back the money for vegas. It isn't quite worth the trip if you have to pay for it. Right?

First let me explain that I believe you are correct that once a person reaches a certain level he can not go down two handicaps ever again.
That's it !!!! if you have paying back the trip hanging over your head that changes alot of things. If you have 6 legit players and two sandbaggers on a team and the 6 legit players know about the having to pay back a trip if caught, I don't think they will go or they will force the captain to call the league operator to legitimize or right size the sandbaggers handicap, or they will call the league operator themselves and say hey look i'm legit but these two aren't I'm not going unless they are moved up because, i'm not paying for this trip. Now the league operator has a decision to make whether this team goes to Vegas or not because they won it with two sandbaggers. WHAT DO YOU THINK ?????

[dirtygirl]

[QUOTE=Stumpy;1314]Okay, although I didn't go into full detail about our board, you apparently didn't read this entire thread or else you would already know that they DO HAVE THE POWER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT, AND THEY HAVE USED THIS POWER MULTIPLE TIMES ALREADY. As a matter of fact, they are the only one's who have the power (our league operator has forfeited this power to the board in order to make it successful). AS for the stats and records, our board is provided with an up to the exact date record of every stat that the player has achieved in our league. Furthermore, because of the diversity of our board (which ranges from very high handi-cap players to very low handi-cap players) they do know almost every player, and then we make an educated decision.

I see where you are coming from, and this might work in your division, which is cool. However, Rob and Mary cover such a LARGE area, that it is impossible to find a few people that know almost every player. Even if you go just based on division, there are still too many people in some areas. Joliet and Romeoville/Lemont are huge.

It's a good thought, I just don't think it would work out here.

[custmq]

I am curious to see if there is any correlation between being opposed to a Handicap Review Board and going to Nationals. Let's see a show of hands... who has been to Vegas in the past 2 years for singles or teams?

[Uncle Rico]

All i have to say is that its not right that a team that won first place last session and won at COC and is going to Citywide is almost dead last in there divison and that only one player on that team is over 50 percent winning percentage this session.

Well then, if they finish last they wont be going to citywide now.

[rexkwondo]

There was a team in our division that took 1st place in the fall and won a COC bid. This session they were dead last until the notice that 'if your team doesn't place in the top 4 after qualifying eligibility may be an issue' , then they jumped into 2nd place within 4 weeks. Amazing, lol.

[dalesrjr8]

Yeah i would agree that they shouldnt go to Citywide but i know that they will and more then likely they will win and go to Vegas which is just a bunch of BS and i hate that teams get away with that sh*t

[angry pirate]

Yeah i would agree that they shouldnt go to Citywide but i know that they will and more then likely they will win and go to Vegas which is just a bunch of BS and i hate that teams get away with that sh*t

I have been watching a team in an another division that a friend of mine is on that team could not catch a break to save t their lives. Whether it would be a scratch on an eight or a player on the opposing team have a great night and beat a player that he probably wouldnt normally and now they have gotten themselves maybe into a position to make playoffs. my point is that not everyone bags. The area i play in i dont think anyone is bagging and i have been playing in this division for about ten years now. Is it possible that some teams manage a little bit?----probably but its a night out and it is nice to be able to stick with the same team. My advice to those who are crying about bagging ----find another division or let it go its just a game and more importantly its a night out!!!!

[rexkwondo]

So If someone beats the system and empties your bank account, uses your credit card for even small amount or cheats you out of something that should be yours, it's okay because they beat the system? I know it's not the same thing, but if I follow your logic, if someone doesn't get caught it's okay. So as long as you don't find out about something , for instance your woman cheating on you, it's okay because they beat the system (your schedule of when you work). As long as Bonds doesn't get caught using steroids or HGH it's okay. Is it up to Dave to decide what is acceptable and what is not? Does dave make the rules? LOL. When people a little more a-moral cross a line and get the better of you, do you cross that line? Some points to ponder. I have had success at upper level play, even against baggers. I, however, want more and more people in this league and not discouraged by rampant bagging so the prizes get bigger, not just the same small slice of pie over and over.

[snap the 8]

just because they got it done doesn't mean you should be mad at them!!! so they beat the system, good for them!!!!

As you all can see Dave's 6th grade education really has helped him be very constructive on this forum.....THANKS DAVE :D

[snap the 8]

so your saying i'm not smart? f@#$ING ORIGINAL!!! GO BACK TO HIGH SCHOOL!!!!

as far as i'm concerned, i have been the ONLY contributor to this board!!! all you people that come on here and whine" this league sucks cause all the SANDBAGGING" can just f@#$ off. ( and yes, i am smart enough not to swear), cause it ain't goin away, you can't change anything, and nobody hears you anyway!!! if you going to sit here and say your league operator lets this happen in their league then you might as well choose some other league to play in!! otherwise, SHUT THE F@#$ UP!!! you people are really bringning this board( or bored) down with this s#$$! if you don't like the system, move away!!!! fair enough?!?!? now,,, let me think in my own peace about how i can get SNAPTHE8 out to play for some money!!! my welfare check didn't come in this week so i got to pay out of my own pocket for TEAMDEPOT20' mom's drinking problem( and she is great on roofies)!!!!!!

peace out!!!!


:rolleyes: ....I bet you got tired of being chased home after school didnt you Dave?
Somehow i have the feeling that your the kind of player that loses a game you really wanted to win but yet tells everyone what a great job you did at bagging to that person you played.....Tell you what Dave. I'll play you a set to 10... Give you 3 games for anything you want the only thing you have to put up is YOU GO FAR AWAY AFTER YOU GET BEAT.

[dalesrjr8]

Hey Dave so u agree with sandbagging and think that its ok that people do it? All i have to say is dont u think it looks bad for are league and us as awhole when teams go to Vegas and get kicked out? When there is a very easy answer to the problem.

[Hot Carl]

In regards to Rexkwondo and Dale's comments about a team winning at COC then being at the bottom of their division and then coming on all of the sudden, why do you automatically assume that they are dumping?

#1 As of a few weeks ago, most divisions were separated top to bottom by just a few points. It wouldn't take a miracle to move through the pack in a couple weeks. If you beat the team ahead of you 4-2 the standings change in a hurry.

#2 A team doesn't have to be in 1st from week 1 on in order to be the best team in their division. Good teams finish strong. Weaker teams fade. A good captain knows that he doesn't have to throw out his best lineup every night of the session. They let guys have some nights off early in the session to regroup or whatever they need to do. Not everyone enjoys playing a full session then going to COC and then being right back in another session. They can sit in the middle of the pack until it comes down to it and then throw everything they have at their opponent and run away at the end because all of their guys are refreshed and ready to go again. And Angry Pirate mentioned before how he always plays better when there is more on the line. This is true for a lot of people. After the ups and downs of a weekend at COC its kind of hard to get pumped for weeks 3 and 4 of the spring session.

Maybe you would feel better if they gave out a "1st Place 1st Half Spring 08" trophy.

Not everyone that wins is cheating. Seriously.

[rexkwondo]

That's how I know they were dumping.

[angry pirate]

That's how I know they were dumping.

Rexkwondo--can you please explain why?

[rexkwondo]

The team I am talking about wasn't behind by a few points, they were lagging behind severely, to the point where I thought Mary invoked the new rule specifically for them.

[cepelinas]

There have been many threads on this site devoted to sandbagging, and I've chimed in a few times but mostly read what others have been saying. One thing that has been said before is that it takes about 100 matches for your true handicap level to emerge. Other posters have suggested that a player's handicap should not go down once it's been raised. To compromise those viewpoints, I throw out the following suggestion:

For lifetime matches 1-50, you are allowed to go down 2 handicap levels; for matches 51-100, you are allowed to go down only one handicap level; and from match 101 on, you can only go up but not down. After 100 matches, if a team feels a player should be lowered, it can petition the league at the start of a session for a one-time handicap change; after the player goes back up, there's no more changes made.

Basically, if you take away the reasons somebody would sandbag, then there would be no benefit to dumping games or running up innings. Let the newer players establish themselves, but once you hit a certain point in this league, be it 100 matches or whatever, you really shouldn't be going down much, if at all.

Good idea? Bad idea? Thoughts?

[chuxter61]

I think that is the most reasonable suggestion thus far on this issue!

[stevesgirl]

100 matches or even 50 for that matter seems to be an awful lot. Using your theory/suggestion, lets say a new player plays on 2 8 ball teams every week. That would be avg 15 weeks x 2 times a week = 30 plays per session. Now with that said, it would take a whole year before that person is completely established? If they play once a week it would be 2 years. I don't agree with that theory. I also don't agree with the theory/suggestion of matches 1-50 you are allowed to flex between 2 levels.

The handicap system is based on the results of your last 20 matches. There are no "special" rules so to speak for new players that I know of. For a new player, once you hit your 20th "lifetime" match, your handicap is then locked and you are only able to move up or down 1 SL from there.

In my opinion, if a person only needs 10 matches to be able to play at Citywide, then the calculation of handicap should be changed from 20 to 10. I also think the 4 play per session rule sucks too. I think all players need to play at least half the session. There are people in this league that are on a solid team and play only their 4 matches and sit and sit and sit. The team is really "saving" this person from moving up in handicap.

Now because this person has only played 4 times a session that would be 4 plays x 3 sessions = equals 12 plays. Lets throw in a COC match and a few playoff matches. 15 matches for the year and their handicap doesn't change because 20 haven't been played yet. Then when they do get raised the excuse is "But Mary, this person only plays 4 times a session and just happen to of had a good night" We all have great nights and we all have crappy nights. If we change the calculation from 20-10 matches a year and change the session plays from 4 to lets say 7 per person, I think it would be a whole different ballgame.

[cepelinas]

The handicap system is based on the results of your last 20 matches. There are no "special" rules so to speak for new players that I know of. For a new player, once you hit your 20th "lifetime" match, your handicap is then locked and you are only able to move up or down 1 SL from there.

Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't know about the handicap "lock" after 20 matches. Just to make sure I was clear though, I didn't mean going up or down two levels "at once", like going from an SL5 to and SL3 in one shot.

I understand what you're saying, and I only threw the 100 number out as an example. The purpose of the post was to find a way to completely discourage sandbagging, which so many people have complained about. At some point you are what you are, skill level-wise, and cheating won't change it. Just an idea..........

[cepelinas]

In my opinion, if a person only needs 10 matches to be able to play at Citywide, then the calculation of handicap should be changed from 20 to 10.

Hey, stevesgirl, based on that calculation, wouldn't it be easier to sandbag, knowing that if my handicap was based on my last 10 matches, I would think it would be easier to plan out which matches to try to win and which matches to try and dump, or am I missing something???

[stevesgirl]

Hey, stevesgirl, based on that calculation, wouldn't it be easier to sandbag, knowing that if my handicap was based on my last 10 matches, I would think it would be easier to plan out which matches to try to win and which matches to try and dump, or am I missing something???


Not really. People would go up and down quicker if it's changed to 10 from 20. But the total number of matches per session would need to change as well. As it sits the total matches a person currently needs to be eligilbe to play playoffs/COC is 4. Now if that is upped from 4 to lets say 7 as I indicated further in the post the team wouldn't really be able to "hide" a player then. They would be "forced" to play them and everyone on that team would have to "step up" so to speak in order for a team to do well if that makes any sense. There wouldn't be any room to play around.

It could be done. You have a roster of 8 people. 15 weeks x 5 matches a night = 75 for the session. 75 matches divided by 8 people is 9.375 per person. If each person needs 7 matches to play playoffs/COC this would force teams to play all their players on their roster. Also, it would eliminate powerhouse teams from playing 2 7's each week or a 7 and 6 each week to save their "lower" handicaps from going up.

It's just a thought.

[Beasly]

i think that is the most reasonable suggestion yet. Good yob

[Afuente]

I really enjoy seeing everyone’s views on bagging. I only hope that the league operators read through these posts and do their best to give feedback to the APA regarding methods to try and curb the bagging.

The most constant option I have heard is to continue to mark safeties for shots you feel are deliberately missed.

Doing this will allow for the equalizer system to balance itself out.

And if you do hear of anything like I did, call and let your league operator know to watch that person or team.

[Jacoby Predator]

Some very very good ideas here and I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.
I played in the APA in Denver a few sessions and guess what, there was no sandbagging issues, none. In order for you to be eligible for post session play you had to play 7 times. You also had to being currently on a roster and playing the session prior to "Denver's version of COC" and Citywide to get there. Just like Stevesgirl pointed out about raising it to 7, or I would say 8, is a VERY big step in the right direction. A 15 week session that players only have to play 4 to be eligible is an absolute joke and if anything, encourages bagging. I think it would solve a lot if players had to play at least 1/2 the session

[cepelinas]

A 15 week session that players only have to play 4 to be eligible is an absolute joke and if anything, encourages bagging. I think it would solve a lot if players had to play at least 1/2 the session

Jacoby, how does only playing four weeks encourage bagging? If your definition of bagging is playing one of your better players only for four weeks and then not playing again until playoffs, that's a stretch. That's completely legal under our rules. If you play your butt off four times, does that make you a bagger? Plus, I would think that that more you play, the more opportunities you have to work towards lowering your handicap by dumping matches. Finally, there are some players that play every week, and you normally see their names in the top gun lists. By playing everyone 7-8 times, you will make it difficult to allow players to compete for the top gun trophy because they'll have to eventually sit. That's not fair to those guys/gals.

By whatever means, if you want to curtail bagging you have to take away the motivation for a player to dump innings or whole games. I don't think playing them more would do that.

[Uncle Rico]

8 weeks minimum? Hmmmm.....

So then, if everyone had to play in half the session, that would then mean that the 3 best players on the team would be sitting for half the session too. I am sure many teams will just jump right up for that one.

I guess now we should re think the way a team is built and just have a team of average players so the nights when you have to play week ass boards you dont get killed so bad.

If people marked safeties and scored the game properly would be a step in the right direction. I have seen so many scorekeepers who have no idea what game it even is, never mind the proper innings or safeties. I am so tempted to tell them when they come over with a blank score sheet and ask "how many innings do you have, I wasn't paying attention" to just tell them 37 and watch them blindly write it down. But yet this team is always the first to call someone else out for cheating.

It starts with you. Certain players would never hold their lower SL if the majority of teams could actually keep proper score and count correctly.

I am sure know everyone is going to tell me how they always do this. NOT TRUE.

Rules do not need to be changed. 4 matches is a good minimum number. Most teams play a set line up anyway while rotating the 5th player. Usually this player is a back up anyway, in case you team has SL changes, so that you could still throw out a completive line up. Hardly ever do I see a player with the minimum matches played become an every match player in playoffs, COC. or citywide unless that team suffered a move.

[Jacoby Predator]

I should have never chimed in for 2 reasons. One is that I don't think the issue of bagging will ever change, the other is that I have accepted this and try to focus on my own game. When I said that I feel that only having to play 4 times a session encourages bagging, I was talking about for players that are new to the league. For example, if you have a player who shoots super 7 speed and has never been in the APA before, limps in and plays 4 times and loses 2 or 3, he/she is likely dropped to a 3. If you have someone who is a SL3 that can run racks on command, how does this not fit the bill of bagging? If you have never played in the league I think you should have to play at least 7 times your 1st session. All I know for sure is in Denver the minimum was higher and there simply weren't any issues with bagging.

[cepelinas]

I should have never chimed in for 2 reasons. One is that I don't think the issue of bagging will ever change, the other is that I have accepted this and try to focus on my own game. When I said that I feel that only having to play 4 times a session encourages bagging, I was talking about for players that are new to the league. For example, if you have a player who shoots super 7 speed and has never been in the APA before, limps in and plays 4 times and loses 2 or 3, he/she is likely dropped to a 3. If you have someone who is a SL3 that can run racks on command, how does this not fit the bill of bagging? If you have never played in the league I think you should have to play at least 7 times your 1st session. All I know for sure is in Denver the minimum was higher and there simply weren't any issues with bagging.

You should chime in. Your opinion counts too. Understanding your comment, and the fact that new players I believe have to play 10 matches to qualify for Citywide, then I suppose setting a number of lifetime matches in order to play in COC's or Citywides should stop that nonsense.

[Jacoby Predator]

You should chime in. Your opinion counts too. Understanding your comment, and the fact that new players I believe have to play 10 matches to qualify for Citywide, then I suppose setting a number of lifetime matches in order to play in COC's or Citywides should stop that nonsense.

I appreciate that Cep. That 10 match rule makes sense to me and is why I was confused. Thanks for explaining

[Hairy_Helmet]

It starts with you. Certain players would never hold their lower SL if the majority of teams could actually keep proper score and count correctly.


I think that a big problem is who the player on the team is thats keeping score. I'm sorry but if I was dumping and a low handicap was keeping score for the other team, there is no way they would be able to determine whether or not I ment to miss or play an "accidental" safe. I'm not trying to say ALL low numbers, but a majority of them, and truly a decent amount of high numbers also. This is how many players are able to run up innings. If I am keeping score for another teams bagger, they will not get the benefit of the doubt when I'm marking a safe or not. They might get their high innings, but they will also have many safes marked.

[shinyballz28]

Everybody has a great points but HairyHelmet has a good point, it is all about the score keeping. I think majority of sandbagging is score keeping and but there is purposely crappy play too. At CoC, Citywide, and Nationals there was a big emphasis on score keeping. If caught cheating you were kicked out of the tournament and more than likely the APA. I have seen players and teams get kicked out of the league for cheating and bagging, one instance the whole team was kicked out of the league at nationals. Even with good score keeping someone could blow a shot here and there and go un-noticed but I am pretty sure Mary has her people out there watching for a while following up on a legitimate complaint before action is taken. I do not think there is an easy way to catch sandbaggers, it is equalizer system we play on and every system has holes in it.

[Hot Carl]

Some good points all around regarding the score keeping.

I've decided to no longer remain anonymous on this board. This is who I am. Some of you may know me.


http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn19/HotCarl02/hotcarlcopy3.jpg

[hustler76]

everyone has gooddays and baddays I for one who shoots in wilmington gets called a bagger all the time since i'm an sl3 and in the fall and spring sessions usally(spdc) end up in the top 5 or 10 of my div I really only shoot on tues with about an hour and half of practice but with anyone else that people or persons shoot on a regular basis can tell if someone is baggin or not should be on the phone with mary right then and asking for a rep to watch that person shoot also correct score keeping will stop baggin

[hustler76]

ohh here is an other way too drop your handicap just have your captain put u against an other player that u both know can beat u everytime your up and you will drop a s/l in time

[teamdepot20]

ohh here is an other way too drop your handicap just have your captain put u against an other player that u both know can beat u everytime your up and you will drop a s/l in time

You know, First and formost. The situation with bagger's in any league will never stop. No matter how much we talk of it , and complain of it. It just is'nt going anywhere. The most we can do is call Mary and complain. Which put's a lable on our head as a soar loser. Welcome to the stage, so & so. "No name's needed". We all spend so much time worrying about these infected individual's that we call sanbagger's that we start to become one our selves. We need to consentrate on what we are here to do. And that is play pool and do it as best as we can for our selve's and our team. If we are as good as we all claim to be at the game, then there is nothing a sanbagger can do that is going to affect our game in the first place. If you suspect someone that you are playing against to be a bagger, bush the shit out of them. Bushing a bagger is'nt going to do anything but piss a bagger off. And then he or she will be forced to show there real playing skill's , resulting in them winning, But revealing thier true skill's. And if then, they continue to hold a low S/L , you now have a ligitimate reason to complain that can not go unheard. Or you end up winning the match, resulting in the bagger looking like the Chump everyone know's that he or she is........I myself was brought into this league by a team captian that actualy prided himself on recruting people that he could train to be bagger's. And thought if he could do this , that would earn his team a ticket to Vegas. Well to date, 5 year's later i hav'nt seen any of his team's make it past COC. And to this day , I still end up playing him & his team of bagger's now & again, and we spank thier ( watch my mouth ) every time. LOL , Chump!!!! Bottom Line Guy's & Gal's. Stop worrying about these chump's and worry about your game, and you will probably notice a differance in your game within 2 or 3 week's. Less stess make's the game more fun.

[teamdepot20]

ohh here is an other way too drop your handicap just have your captain put u against an other player that u both know can beat u everytime your up and you will drop a s/l in time

Ohh , And by the way , Asking to have a rep. watch over that player as they shot , to decide if they are bagging. The rep. is as much a bagger as the person thier watching. So go figure that one . Good Luck trying to get results from that. Just play your heart out , and don't let anyone get in your head. Cause if you do , you never had a chance to win to begin with. Stay with your game and you will do better than you ever immagined. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!!

[angry pirate]

Ohh , And by the way , Asking to have a rep. watch over that player as they shot , to decide if they are bagging. The rep. is as much a bagger as the person thier watching. So go figure that one . Good Luck trying to get results from that. Just play your heart out , and don't let anyone get in your head. Cause if you do , you never had a chance to win to begin with. Stay with your game and you will do better than you ever immagined. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!!

Still, tony stewart has a mullet!!!!

[rexkwondo]

a few reps are the ones who encourage bagging on their teams. Nice 'Rep'resentation

[kmlpag]

Ohh , And by the way , Asking to have a rep. watch over that player as they shot , to decide if they are bagging. The rep. is as much a bagger as the person thier watching. So go figure that one . Good Luck trying to get results from that. Just play your heart out , and don't let anyone get in your head. Cause if you do , you never had a chance to win to begin with. Stay with your game and you will do better than you ever immagined. GOOD LUCK TO ALL!!!!

I'm sorry but I disagree with you on "the rep is as much a bagger as the person thier watching. I am a rep and I have never bagged the 10 years that I've been in this league. I go out to win every time I play. I am proud of myself every time I go up a skill level because it means I have learned something and have improved. I encourage my team mates to do the same. I do agree with your comment to stay with your game and you will do better then you ever imagined.

[teamdepot20]

I'm sorry but I disagree with you on "the rep is as much a bagger as the person thier watching. I am a rep and I have never bagged the 10 years that I've been in this league. I go out to win every time I play. I am proud of myself every time I go up a skill level because it means I have learned something and have improved. I encourage my team mates to do the same. I do agree with your comment to stay with your game and you will do better then you ever imagined.

Ok , you called me on that one . So, just in case i worded my comment wrong, or you just mis-understood what i'm trying to say. This is what was meant to be understood. If you are a rep. in any league & you are a S/L less than a 4. I think you are a bagger. And how could you be trusted with the title Division Rep. if you are'nt at least a 4/sl ? I've gone a few sessions where i sat out 50% of the time, and still got raised. Is a division rep. not playing 3/4 of the session? And they remain a low handicap. Some may say , Oh! they just lost every week. Well how do they end up in the top 10 in TOP-GUN, each & every session but they lost every week ? And are still a 3, or even a 4 for that matter. Anyone that has any brain cell's in thier head has it figured out. But like i said in my previous post. keep your head in the game & concentrate on what your there to do. Play Pool & Have Fun. Quit worrying about these chump's, because as long as it i permitted to happen' They are here to stay'

[Fluke]

this is just crap that will never be fixed. try as we might to complain, but nothing will happen. you will see teams that have friends on other teams in the same division that will actually help another advance. what is that? these people are just helping the cause and then crying about it. it really is simple, nothing will be done, or can be done. these people will help each other stay that way and cry about it later. that is what they do.

[Uncle Rico]

There was a team in our division that took 1st place in the fall and won a COC bid. This session they were dead last until the notice that 'if your team doesn't place in the top 4 after qualifying eligibility may be an issue' , then they jumped into 2nd place within 4 weeks. Amazing, lol.

Maybe you should look back over the schedules while they are still up.

At no point during the session were we ever more than 4 points behind your team and you took top points. Some weeks we were even ahead. Do not make stupid assumptions and post them on here like they were the truth. A combination of certain teams not turning the sheets in on time and having make up matches to play resulted in the big jump in standings.

Damn right we looked like we were in last and the jumped to second place. Thats what happens were you get credit for 3 different matches in one week. Thats how you jump 12 points in the standings in one week. It had nothing to do with keeping our eligibility for city wide. That notice was nothing new, it has always been like that.

Blatant accusations are not appreciated. Especially when you do not have your facts straight.

[justagirl623]

I think a couple people on this site need to get their facts straight. First of all, Uncle Rico, why would you think rex was talking about you in that quote? I am sure because a certain person told you that our team was saying that about yours. Actually, I am the person that asked what happened with the points, but without making accusations. I mentioned it to a certain someone and now that he is aggravated..trouble is starting. Maybe you should get your facts straight and not rely on an unreliable source. WE ARE NOT ACCUSING YOUR TEAM OF SANDBAGGING! We really don't care at this point.

We were out to have fun and see what would happen, but now people are getting big attitudes and it is absolutely ridiculous..and all over what is heard by other people. Why can't everyone just get along? I actually did enjoy reading some of the funny stuff on this forum.

[Hot Carl]

I don't think Uncle Rico's post has anything to do with things he heard. More so what he quoted there. Also I don't think he's upset about it. I know I'm still having fun. I'd be having more fun if Angry Pirate kept his mouth shut though.

[angry pirate]

I don't think Uncle Rico's post has anything to do with things he heard. More so what he quoted there. Also I don't think he's upset about it. I know I'm still having fun. I'd be having more fun if Angry Pirate kept his mouth shut though.

maybe YOUR BUDDY can shave your back

[Hot Carl]

maybe YOUR BUDDY can shave your back

My back doesn't require shaving.

[Mildred Ratched R.N.]

i don't know carl, i've seen it, and i think i'd have to disagree. it could use a little schick quattro action.

[champkind whammy]

i don't know carl, i've seen it, and i think i'd have to disagree. it could use a little schick quattro action.


shaving with some seran wrap? now thats hot!!

[Mildred Ratched R.N.]

"Only thing'll make my life complete when I turn yo face to a toilet seat. I want to pee on you."

[Kimo424]

ALL members of ALL teams carry scorecards at ALL times during league play.
EVERYONE will be considered a Handicap Review Board Member...Now all players will play their best or their worse ALL THE TIME...There is now no advantage to sandbagging!!

This will also eliminate the constant questions of do you know who is on the HRB?

Just that simple..:rolleyes:

[Jobu's_empty_shot_glass]

Wow, that would kinda suck...I'm out there to shoot, and enjoy myself...and now I gotta evaluate the other shooters??? I wonder how many of those "scorecards" would get filled out before the person even shot???

[Kimo424]

Wow, that would kinda suck...I'm out there to shoot, and enjoy myself...and now I gotta evaluate the other shooters??? I wonder how many of those "scorecards" would get filled out before the person even shot???

OMG...Lol....That was just to lighten up the thread. Basically, if everybody thought every one of their opponents was on the HRB, they would play the same way EVERY time....

Not possible...was just a joke....lol Sorry it made you think long and hard about it....I shoulda said JK in my post....Shoot your game & Keep Havin' Fun!!

[jazzenut]

I am one that strives to play the best I can and to my potential. I played one 9 ball session and was disgusted with the amount of bagging going on I refuse to play again. I am however on an 8 ball team and it is evident that bagging still exists but it is not as obvious at times. I have settled with the thought, the reality is that this is just the way it is and I would much rather loose at COC’s or Citywide knowing that my team played there best and to their potential than to advance to Las Vegas by bagging and win by cheating. How can you have any satisifacion knowing you had to cheat to win? Where is the self woth in that?

Having said that, it still amazes me that well respected players and their teams are bagging and they are adamant to their players that they cannot win or play to their potential during the standard session. If you play someone two levels above you, but you can only win 2 maybe 3 times in the session or do not win until COC’s, that way when you win at COC's you will not be raised because you lost so much during the regular session.

I had a general conversation with a gentleman that was playing on a practice table the other night during leagues. I introduced myself as did he and he asked me if I played on leagues. I said "yes I play out of here." He asked what my level was and I said "I was a 5, and you I asked"? “I am a 3” he said, “wow” I replied, “I’ve been watching you play a few games and you don’t play like a 3”, “Well I’m a 3 on paper" he replied as he nearly ran the table on the first game we played. “I was shooting here and was asked to join a team” he mentioned "I have not played APA before". “I was told I could not win for a while though. They let me win against a 6 a week or two ago” he said. “I was told I could not really win until COC’s, they think we have a pretty stacked team to get to Vegas” he mentioned. “I think I could shoot as a 5” he expressed, as he won the next 5 games. Giving me one shot at the table each game. “Do you think I could shoot as a 5” he asked? I said “Yeah, I think so”

His consistency of English, stroke, bank shots, kick shots, position play and defense was clearly the definition of a SL5. SL3 I don’t think so.

I won 2 games of the 15 we played and he is a 3 on paper.

I have read other posts about bagging, and the reality is that, this is just the way it is. It apparently cannot be monitored each night aside from having more DR’s watch and report on players. I do think if you go to Vegas you should not be able to go below the highest SL you played as.

Is there an effective way to monitor this? Is one option to have a responsibility of a team captain to assess the other teams players? Would the fact that knowing you are being assessed force you or your team to play to their potential?

I think a rating sheet for each team each night should be part of score keeping. As rating sheets of players are submitted from different teams you can make a decision based on the rating from different teams on different nights.

Please feel free to comment.
I can assure you there are no sandbaggers in this league........................

[Hot Carl]

I am curious as to what there are more of in this league: Baggers or people that cry like my 7 year old niece when she can't have ice cream.

(This isn't directed specifically at one person)

[jiffy247]

I am curious as to what there are more of in this league: Baggers or people that cry like my 7 year old niece when she can't have ice cream.

(This isn't directed specifically at one person)


it does feel like pre-school in here

[slanidrac16]

I have read other posts about bagging, and the reality is that, this is just the way it is. It apparently cannot be monitored each night aside from having more DR’s watch and report on players. I do think if you go to Vegas you should not be able to go below the highest SL you played as.



The single point you made that irratates me the most is players going to playoffs, COC and CW with a SL lower than their "highest" level achieved.
I don't care if you've played 50 or 500 games. If you achieved a SL 6 at anytime during your "career", then by golly, thats what you should be ESPECIALLY when reaching playoffs, COC, CW not to mention Vegas.
Wouldn't that stop much of the nonsense?
If you have played 400 matches with a winning % of over 55% and was once a SL 6, how in the world should this player be allowed to compete as SL 5?

[Baggin]

The single point you made that irratates me the most is players going to playoffs, COC and CW with a SL lower than their "highest" level achieved.
I don't care if you've played 50 or 500 games. If you achieved a SL 6 at anytime during your "career", then by golly, thats what you should be ESPECIALLY when reaching playoffs, COC, CW not to mention Vegas.
Wouldn't that stop much of the nonsense?
If you have played 400 matches with a winning % of over 55% and was once a SL 6, how in the world should this player be allowed to compete as SL 5?

...always with this point...so if I played two years ago, reached a s/l of 5 and then say, had to quit for work/family/military...whatever...and now get back into the leaque and can't shoot for crap, don't really take it serious any longer but do it to get out have some fun with friends and do some drinkin...

...by your standards I would be forced to play as a five if we actually get somewhere...where is the justice in that??...

...if everyone was a little less worried about other peoples handicaps and a little more worried about playin the best "match" they can, not neccesarily runnin out but actually using some strategy to beat the "baggers" then I could actually take the earplugs out and have some fun...

...the system works...but like with any system, the squeaky wheels always get the grease...if nothing else other than to shut them up...

[Kimmer0178]

...always with this point...so if I played two years ago, reached a s/l of 5 and then say, had to quit for work/family/military...whatever...and now get back into the leaque and can't shoot for crap, don't really take it serious any longer but do it to get out have some fun with friends and do some drinkin...

...by your standards I would be forced to play as a five if we actually get somewhere...where is the justice in that??...

...if everyone was a little less worried about other peoples handicaps and a little more worried about playin the best "match" they can, not neccesarily runnin out but actually using some strategy to beat the "baggers" then I could actually take the earplugs out and have some fun...

...the system works...but like with any system, the squeaky wheels always get the grease...if nothing else other than to shut them up...

I can see what you are saying about the crying and complaining that happens, I've been guilty of it too. But why should the player that is a s/l 3 and working and trying to be a higher s/l be forced to suffer because other people can't follow the rules and do what is right?

[Baggin]

...someone who is striving to improve their s/l will...the only downfall is if you win a match and the opponent feels "cheated" or "bagged" and starts crying wolf...you could get bumped up sooner than you are ready...in which case you will move back down, eventually or play well enough to stay up...

...don't know who said it, but the comment "most of those crying couldn't spot a bagger if they smacked em in the face" is more than true...and those who suffer are the ones playing at their skill level, trying to improve and happen to have a good night...

...I think a bumper sticker best sums up what the leaque motto should be...

...Sit down, shut up and hold on...

...the whiners will never shut up...and once the leaque starts to bow to their demands we all lose...

[slanidrac16]

...always with this point...so if I played two years ago, reached a s/l of 5 and then say, had to quit for work/family/military...whatever...and now get back into the leaque and can't shoot for crap, don't really take it serious any longer but do it to get out have some fun with friends and do some drinkin...

...by your standards I would be forced to play as a five if we actually get somewhere...where is the justice in that??...

...if everyone was a little less worried about other peoples handicaps and a little more worried about playin the best "match" they can, not neccesarily runnin out but actually using some strategy to beat the "baggers" then I could actually take the earplugs out and have some fun...

...the system works...but like with any system, the squeaky wheels always get the grease...if nothing else other than to shut them up...

Well, if you don't take it serious and you are just out for fun then really, what are you worried about? And how many people actually do this?

Now you are worried about justice? Apparently you and your team must have been doing something right to get "somewhere".

Your example would come into play far less than the ordinary situation. If you have shot 500 times in APA and reached a level 6 then it's evident that you have the ability to shoot at that level. If you sat out a year I doubt you would come back and play as a SL4 and your experience alone would qualify you at the very least a SL5 and a high one at that.

Our team has taken the stance where we no longer worry about SL of other players and teams. We will play our best and let the chips fall where they may.
However, we will be a part of the solution and we will pass along names that blatantly under handicapped.

[cepelinas]

Our team has taken the stance where we no longer worry about SL of other players and teams. We will play our best and let the chips fall where they may.

That's a great way to look at it. Some players are underhandicapped, either because the system hasn't caught up to them yet, or because they are working to stay that way. Some players are OVER handicapped, and that can be a problem too if you're one of those players. The motto on the top of the website should be changed from "Play Pool, Meet People, Have Fun" to "Shut Up and Shoot". I know I've said this before (look it up), but if you never miss a shot, never blow a safety, never leave yourself a crappy shot --you'll NEVER lose. Don't whine and complain because you got beat because I'll bet my last dollar on Earth that every player that has done so has missed shots, blown safeties, and/or left themselves crappy shots in the matches they've lost. Stop blaming others and take responsibility over your own game. You lost because you lost. Enough.